ok. interested to see what y'all have to say.

[bonjour]

I am 23 years old, and have been lifting since i was seventeen.
on most boards i have been checking out, the guys posting pics post-cycle really dont look all the impressive to me.
I am on week nine of a test cyp 500mg/week plus eq 200mg/week cycle, used test prop to kick start, and have some left to end the cycle with.
and am enjoying the psychological aspects immensely. my strength has gone up, energy levels and mood are fantastic, but although i am eating like 4500 calories per day, with 200 grams of protein, i havent gained more than 8 pounds.
so i started checking out pictures of people who have done cycles, and most of them dont look any better post cycle than i did before ever starting aas. i was kind of hoping for more. maybe i just trained right for a long time before hand, because i went from 6' /155 pounds to 190 pounds without aas, and a low bf of 8%.
do I just have good genes, or do i need a stronger cycle to get past this?
or are there any lifters out there who had already gained good size before aas, can show me some pics of dramatic results post-cycle.
I keep seeing skinny little pussies who took roids to get to my current natural size, and it just doesnt seem right.
starting to think about tren...

[Marx]

Hey bro, you sound 23- don't worry, you'll grow out of it.

Look at the fundamentals, friend.

EAT MORE

C'mon, if you aren't gaining then you must be coming up short somewhere, correct? How much do you weigh? about 200 pounds, right?

What pre cycle research led you to believe that working out hard on a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight was going to lead to gains? Double it at least, AT LEAST.

WORK FROM A PLANNED,WRITTEN SCHEDULE

OK, post up your average meal schedule, what you eat, quantities, when etc.

Next, post your workout routines, movements, reps, sets, weights.

How much water are you taking in? What supplements? Hows your sleeping?

You have to give details to ask for advice or how can people know how to help, can troubleshoot for you.

It isn't the compounds that are going to grow you, it is planning and executing a program based on a clear understanding of the physical fundamentals of bodily repair and growth coupled with an intelligent training regiman.

Did you plan out PCT?

Best to you

[KellysGymCarver]

Iron Body Building

Go to the link above. It's one of those 18 reasons why you're not growing posts. It's pretty good, even though most of it is common sense stuff.

You may have to register with the board to read it, but it doesn't take long.I think they used to be SteroidMonsterz.com ........KGC

[F250]

EAT, brother! I say this being very similar in build to you. I am 28 years old, 5'11", and 201lbs and stay around 7% BF year round. I weighed all of 135lbs soaking wet when I began lifting. I made it to 175 before I ever juiced. I did my first cycle starting in September of '00. As you can see, even with AAS usage, it's still taken me seven years to gain another 25lbs. I don't gain much more than 7-8 lbs when on. But Marx is correct. Protein is essential, as well as your water intake. A gallon a day is a must also.

I think we've talked about it before on here, and it seems that people who build a good foundation before using AAS, don't tend to put on 20-30 lbs when they cycle.

One other thing you may want to look at is your training style. Are you benching, deadlifting, and above all, squatting? If you want to get big, you have to lift big weight. Are you living on the hammer strength equipment? It's neat looking, and it has it's place, but heavy, core movements with free weights is the key, in my personal opinion and experience. I began powerlifting about 5 months ago, and it has truly transformed my physique. I was sitting around 189-191 and when I would get on I would bump up to 96-97. Lifting heavy weight on bench, deadlift, and squat put me over the 200 mark, and I'm holding steady there since I finished up my last cycle. That tells me that the change in my training has added some solid mass that I wasn't getting from my bodybuilding workouts anymore.

I would also hold off on the tren. Pretty harsh drug to introduce after just one cycle. Rely on your diet and training, and not the drugs. Drugs come and go, but diet and training last forever.

Just my .02

[bonjour]

roger that good info.
I may have set my expectations a little high, and gains prob wont be quite as dramatic as with a noob who hasnt built a good foundation. good to hear someone elses experience, coming from a similar body type.

and I definitely need to eat more.
im not going to worry about staying cut right now, and just shovel more in.

I try to stay away from machines, and stick mostly to free weights. squats, bent over rows, heavy bench with both bar and dumbells, ocasionally incorporating drop sets, rest-pauses, negatives.

i may be overtraining, too. been doing six days per week, I should maybe add one more off day in the middle to allow for more recovery.

[pseclint]

whoa whoa whoa now, this is his first cycle and hes on 500mg of test and all he is gained is 8lbs!!!! I can run 250mg a week, eat lettuce and drink orange juice, train twice a week and still gain more weight than that in nine weeks........ somethings not right here...

[Marx]

Stole this from another board, just to give you a sense of the amount of food you should be taking in to fuel both your workouts/recovery and GROWTH.

Actually have seen to postings like this this week- you need to see this:

(I don't know wtf Vitargo is, skip that part...)


Size diet: Gain muscle with no fat!

Example for a 200lb man:

Your goal should be to eat 350 grams of protein (1.5 - 1.75grams per lb of bodyweight) and to eat about 450 grams of carbohydrates per day (2.25 - 2.5 grams per lb of bodyweight). Your caloric intake should be about 3700-3800 calories per day. This calorie intake should be enough for some size gains but not fat.
For solid protein I think that you should be eating five servings of 30grams per day. For example: 5 chicken breasts (30 grams of protein each), or 5 cans of tuna (30 gs each), or mix them up 3 chicken breasts and 2 cans of tuna etc... (4oz of turkey is about 30 grams of protein and 5oz of lean red meat is about 30grams of protein also).
I am going to suggest taking 3protein shakes per day at about 60 grams each. So with the solid protein (150 grams per day) and liquid (180 grams daily) you should be getting enough protein. (This doesn't include the protein you are getting from oatmeal etc.)
Carbs are the easy part. In general, for solid carbs you will only need to eat them about 3 times per day. Oatmeal, fruit, potatoes, rice, and pasta. Take in about 75 grams per meal 2 times per day and 30 - 50 grams once in the evening. That is 1 cup of oats with one piece of fruit. 3 medium size potatoes. 1 medium size bowl of pasta or 1 large bowl of rice. For liquid carbs you should take in about 3 scoops of PURE VITARGO after your workout (108 grams of carbs).
Here is an example of a typical day:

MEAL 1:
1 cup of oats (54g carbs)
1 piece of fruit in my oats (25g carbs)
2&1/2 scoops of Whey Protein (60g protein)
MEAL 2:
1&1/2 chicken breasts (45g protein)
1 yogurt (50g carbs)
MEAL 3:
2 chicken breats (60g protein)
1 bowl of pasta (75g carbs)
some veggies
MEAL 4:
2 Scoops of Whey Protein and 1 Scoop of Pure Vitargo (45g protein, 25carbs)
1 piece of fruit (25g carbs)
SNACK: (PREWORKOUT)
1 scoop of Pure Vitargo (36g carbs)
1 scoop of Whey Protein (25g protein)
POST WORKOUT DRINKS:
3 Scoops of Pure Vitargo (108g carbs)
3 Scoops of Whey Isolate (75g protein)
MEAL 5:
1&1/2 chicken breasts (45 grams of protein)
1 medium potato (30g carbs)
veggies
MEAL 6:
(before bed)
2&1/2 scoops of Evopro Protein (60g of protein)
TOTALS:
CARBS: 428 GRAMS
PROTEIN: 415 GRAMS

I don't count fat grams because you get enough in your regular foods. You probably are getting about 50 grams per day which adds 450 calories.
I overloaded on the protein because that is something you should shoot for. You might not be able to eat that much in one day (right away). But try to eat almost that much, because you will notice better gains. Also your schedule might not allow you time for that preworkout snack. You don't want to eat protein too close to your workout (45 minutes or less). Your body has no problem digesting carbs during a workout.
Listed below are some more foods for you to choose from to build your mass diet.

Protein foods about 60 grams each:

* 18 egg whites
* 10 oz tuna fish
* 12 oz of eye of round steak
* 10 oz of turkey breast
* 10 oz of chicken or 2 breasts
* 2 cups of nonfat cottage cheese
* 10 oz of most kinds of fish

Complex carbs 60 grams each:

* 2 medium potatoes or 12oz
* 1 & 1/2 cup of cooked rice
* 4 slices of wheat bread
* 1 cup of oatmeal
* 2 pieces of fruit
* 3 oz of dry pasta

Try to eat as much veggies when possible. It helps digestion and your metabolism. Asparagus, green beans, broccoli, celery, eggplant, lettuce, mushrooms, spinach, zucchini. Don't count the minimal carbohydrates from veggies.
If you are more interested in losing body fat:

You should cut the amount of carbs that you eat in half. Instead of 450 grams of carbs you would eat about 200 - 225 grams per day. You would also cut out most fruit in your diet, the carb drinks, and dairy products.


EAT BRO, EAT!

[atomicpump]

Ok..... I guess I'm going to contradict the above a little after reading that lengthy list of food, but I have to be honest. I totally admire the amount of "clean" calories, carbs and protein in that list, but I will say not everyone has the time to plan, money for that much protein supplementation or dedication to eat like that every day. Don't get me wrong, that is totally awesome if you can do it, but I don't know that just anyone can.

I am lucky in that I don't need to eat that much to gain weight being a meso build, but I would advocate possibly eating a little "dirtier" than that to get the excess caloric intake that HAS to be present to build muscle.... It will be hard for a guy who is a ecto build to eat the excess necessary since his metabolism is so high. For him, I'd almost suggest eating whatever he wanted (within reason) as long as it isn't all junk food and sugar. Make sure to eat lots of red meat, eggs, whole milk, yogurt/dairy etc. along with your protein supplementation. If you can't gain weight, I think it's fine for you to eat the occassional pizza, burgers, hot dogs etc. to aid in consuming adequate calories. The gear will help more of those calories to be converted into muscle than just going to fat. Keep in mind in order to gain bulk/weight, it may be very difficult if not impossible with your metabolism if you're wanting to remain in the single digits body fat wise. There's a reason why pro's have off seasons... some even get down right FAT like Lee Priest, although he is an exception. Dorian Yates was known for eating cartons of ice cream at a time believe it or not.

Make sure the bulk of your training also is heavy compound movements with free weights. Don't do the high rep light weight thing or focus on isolation movements. The bulk of your routine should be pretty much all heavy pressing movements, rowing movements, squats & deads etc.

Also, don't expect TOO much from a cycle. You aren't going to look like Ronnie Coleman after 1 mild test cycle. Keep things in perspective... and yeah, the guys that gain 30lbs. on 1 cycle are the ones that probably could have gained that naturally if they were a little more patient and most likely shouldn't be doing AAS. A lot of dudes on the boards don't even look like they work out IMO even after their cycles. I think if you shot for 12lbs-15lbs., that is probably doable if you're consuming adequate nutrients and calories, doing heavy weights with adequate rest and sleep.

This is JMO only, so others may disagree. Take it for what it's worth and decide for yourself....

[187GN]

Man..I gained 50+lbs in a year...I feel pretty lucky...

Started at 140 a year ago in november. I'm 194 right now. From 178-194 is with DS/PH usage.

I also got a lil pudgy. Prolly around 16% bf.

Wanna know how?? I EAT FOOD...and lots of it!

[DragonRider]

If you don't grow, it's cuz you aren't eating enough. That is from someone who has the same problem. I am never hungry and I hate the sight and smell of food and protein drinks make me literally sick to my stomach.


Besides that, 200mg of EQ is a waste of time. Don't get me wrong, you could have grown easily on the 500mg of test, but if you want to see benefits with EQ, you need at least 400mg per week and many people don't get anything until the 600mg mark.