New Guy...1st Cycle

[balookis]

Hey everyone. I posted my stats under the "New Member Intros." section, but for the sake of making it simple for anyone responding to this thread, I'll post them here as well. I'm 36, 6'1", 210lbs., about 12%. I've got a pretty solid foundation in lifting but no AAS exp. The test levels are dropping at my age and I'm ready to give the gear a shot.

I was thinking of a cycle that looks something like this:

Week 1-12 : Testosterone enanthate 500mg/week
Week 1-2 : Boldenone Undecylenate 600-800 mg/week
Week 3-12 : Boldenone Undecylenate 300-400 mg/week
Week 6-13 : Stanozolol 50-100 mg/day
Week 12-14 : HCG 3000/3000/1500/1500 IU / 5days
Week 12-17 : Tamoxifen Citrate 20 mg/day
Week 14-15 : Clomiphene Citrate 100 mg/day
Week 16-17 : Clomiphene Citrate 50 mg/day

I'm sure some of you may recognize this layout. I "borrowed" it from a post BigCat made on another board. I am obviously not experienced in this stuff so it would be stupid for me to try and piece together my own stack when far more knowledgable folks have already done it. I have been giving some thought to a Test. only cycle, as well, since it would be my first.

What do you guys think of this cycle? Outdated? Too much for the first time? Perfect? Any feedback is appreciated...as would be any PM's regarding legit places to find these things. Thanks, guys.

[tapout]

WAY TOO MUCH FOR THE FIRST TIME BRO!!! Just go with 500mg Test per week. You will grow like a weed. If u have to do more...just throw in the EQ and u will b good to go!

Good luck.

[Magni]

X2
500MG of test per week is good for a first cycle. BigCat is a great source of information but a little behind the times when it comes to PCT.

Week 1-12 : Testosterone enanthate 500mg/week
Week 1-13 : HCG 100IU ed or 250IU twice a week
Week 13-16 : Tamoxifen Citrate 20 mg/day

I prefer a low dose AI on cycle instead of Nolva. You may or may not need an AI or SERM on cycle at 500MG of Test.

Clomid is shit, my recommendation is to stay the hell away from it.

[balookis]

Thanks for the replies, fellas. I think I will follow that advice and just stick to the 500mg of Test. E for the first go around...a safer way to go and I can always add more the next time.

I'm a little curious about the HCG at low doses throughout the entire cycle. I've heard mixed reports on whether or not this is a good idea. Are most guys doing this now? What are the risks of it further shutting me down and making things worse instead of better?

Just to clarify....the Nolva alone is sufficient for PCT?

[fibercarbon]

Originally Posted by Magni

X2
500MG of test per week is good for a first cycle. BigCat is a great source of information but a little behind the times when it comes to PCT.

Week 1-12 : Testosterone enanthate 500mg/week
Week 1-13 : HCG 100IU ed or 250IU twice a week
Week 13-16 : Tamoxifen Citrate 20 mg/day

I prefer a low dose AI on cycle instead of Nolva. You may or may not need an AI or SERM on cycle at 500MG of Test.

Clomid is shit, my recommendation is to stay the hell away from it.

this is solid advice right here

[rdel85]

Originally Posted by balookis

Thanks for the replies, fellas. I think I will follow that advice and just stick to the 500mg of Test. E for the first go around...a safer way to go and I can always add more the next time.

I'm a little curious about the HCG at low doses throughout the entire cycle. I've heard mixed reports on whether or not this is a good idea. Are most guys doing this now? What are the risks of it further shutting me down and making things worse instead of better?

Just to clarify....the Nolva alone is sufficient for PCT?

Running HCG throughout the cycle doesn't seem like it is worth the hassel to me, but I have never tried it. 500iu ed for 10 days at the end works fine for me.

If you run it at the end...Test weeks 1-12. The day after your last injection begin HCG for ten days. Two weeks after your first injection begin PCT with clomid 50mg ed for 3 weeks
1-12 cycle
13-14 ---->hcg for ten days
15 PCT

[balookis]

A couple more questions that I thought of...

1. I have read that it may be a bad idea to run Test without using EQ or Deca (or ?) to help with collagen synthesis to protect the tendons. Any thoughts on that?

2. Any thoughts on running Sust or Omnadren in place of the Test. E? I understand the fundamental differences between these compounds, but what are the "real world" pros and cons of running one over the other...especially for a first time user. I am not skittish about needles, by the way, so I don't really mind the more frequent injections if it means greater results, less fluctuation of levels and fewer sides. I am leaning towards the Test. E, but I am open to suggestions. What do you guys think?

3. Would Arimidex be a suitable substitute for the HCG during cycle? I'm under the impression that some are using it instead...am I wrong there? Are they used for different reasons?

Thanks again for helping to educate the new guy...it is appreciated.

[Magni]

Originally Posted by balookis

A couple more questions that I thought of...

1. I have read that it may be a bad idea to run Test without using EQ or Deca (or ?) to help with collagen synthesis to protect the tendons. Any thoughts on that?

2. Any thoughts on running Sust or Omnadren in place of the Test. E? I understand the fundamental differences between these compounds, but what are the "real world" pros and cons of running one over the other...especially for a first time user. I am not skittish about needles, by the way, so I don't really mind the more frequent injections if it means greater results, less fluctuation of levels and fewer sides. I am leaning towards the Test. E, but I am open to suggestions. What do you guys think?

3. Would Arimidex be a suitable substitute for the HCG during cycle? I'm under the impression that some are using it instead...am I wrong there? Are they used for different reasons?

Thanks again for helping to educate the new guy...it is appreciated.

You are either the brightest 1st time cycler or you are winding me up..not sure which Good questions....

Question 1:
"originally posted by AnimalMass

While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.

AnimalMass"

Question 2:
Totally a personal choice. The Sust short esters will give you a kick and you really need to inj 2x a week but I prefer using Cyp only once ew. First cycle you may want to go with a longer ester but again this is a personal choice.

Question 3:
No.. Arimidex is an Aromatase Inhibitor.. basically blocks conversion of Test to Estrogen to combat bloating and gyno while on cycle.

HCG unraveled from Everything that is wrong with your PCT by Eric Potratz. AR I believe means well with his PCT protocol but this just works much better......

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that is used in place of LH to stimulate hormone production from the gonads.1 LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone. When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production.2-6,19 However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle. Though, we will learn that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand the most efficient way to use it. Many popular "steroid profiles" advocate an hCG dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency.85,86 That is, testes desensitize when not presented with a sufficient LH signal. In men with normal LH levels and testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only ~250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu.2,11 (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above base line.12-18) So, if you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

To get an idea of how quickly testicular degeneration occurs from your average multi-AAS cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration.2,9,10 By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%.2-6 It should be mentioned that visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone.4 This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, testicular size may appear normal on a cycle, but the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly diminished.3-5

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids.8 In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size.7 Other studies with men using low dose steroid implants for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks.6

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a cycle, increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG, estrogen will be increased disproportionately, which then causes further HPTA suppression while increasing the risk of gyno.11 For example, high doses of hCG are known to raise estradiol 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%.11 Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes12,13,19 (the last thing someone wants during recovery). While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a drug such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM. (covered in the next section)

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle. Based on studies with normal men using steroids, ~100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG.2 It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular degeneration occurs, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use.

Recap – For optimal preservation of testicular function during cycle, use 100iu hCG ED starting 3 days after your first AAS dose. Drop the hCG a week before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG a week after your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG a week before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even drop in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, making for a seamless recovery.

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a weekly shot of 500iu hCG, throughout the entire cycle. Beyond this dose, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence. (40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

As an alternative to the on cycle hCG protocol, you could follow a plan based on modulation of the gonadotropin pulse generator. (seen here)

Note: If following any of these protocols, hCG should NOT be used after the cycle.

[Seanster]

Originally Posted by balookis

A couple more questions that I thought of...

1. I have read that it may be a bad idea to run Test without using EQ or Deca (or ?) to help with collagen synthesis to protect the tendons. Any thoughts on that?

2. Any thoughts on running Sust or Omnadren in place of the Test. E? I understand the fundamental differences between these compounds, but what are the "real world" pros and cons of running one over the other...especially for a first time user. I am not skittish about needles, by the way, so I don't really mind the more frequent injections if it means greater results, less fluctuation of levels and fewer sides. I am leaning towards the Test. E, but I am open to suggestions. What do you guys think?

3. Would Arimidex be a suitable substitute for the HCG during cycle? I'm under the impression that some are using it instead...am I wrong there? Are they used for different reasons?

Thanks again for helping to educate the new guy...it is appreciated.

Gyad dam Magni! Did you have anytime to do anything today besides your thesis!..lmao! j/k brah

Aight Balookis, Seanster comin to the table with a little experience, medically and age wise.

DO NOT USE ANY MORE THAN ONE COMPOUND YOUR FIRST CYCLE 21 or 36 YEARS OLD! Just let that sink in first ok and if you get nothing else read this line again. Not being a smart ass but I have a little experience with patient teaching ok..listen to me.

The first cycle as stated above will only be ran with test ony. Enth or Cyp is a great catch @ 500mg/pw...Nolva and HCG for PCT, dont use clomid/clomifen on a pct the first time (mentally speaking) HCH will take care of the reproduction of test through the HPTA governing process, Nolva will take care of you crying like a baby during movies because your estrogen is working your ass up! Clomid is something you need to get used to during stacks but awesome for stacks!

You are 36 years old, yes test levels have dropped but only through normal aging process not past AAS abuse like so many of us. It is true that you can bridge test 6-8 weeks @ 200mg pw for PCT and go into a stack with deca or dbol. I would suggest that you use regular pct related to the facts that you dont know how your body will react and you want homeostasis of the HPTA to start reporduction of test. After that use 200-300mg/pw test bridges and try to PCT normal once a year on HCG/Nolva/Clomid(stack only).

Would suggest first cycle to do test e/nolva/HCG, take the cycle 10 weeks, pct 6-8 weeks OR bridge w/test then for the second cycle TestE/Dbol or Deca 12-14 weeks, pct or bridge out 6-8 weeks, 3rd cycle Test E/Cyp?or a test mix/ Deca at a higher dose than 2nd and throw in eq, pct or bridge take it 14-16 weeks, next cycle throw in another compound...ye feeelin me?? You need to think about a cutting cycle compound also winny/anavar....Maybe ur 3rd stack sounds great hit the winny!

Just research bro. Sounds like you are, but the androgens and sides are what you need to watch. I had a buddy that never used AAS, trained with him for 6 months, was a pussy to pin himself so I did, sust250 @ 1ml and 5 minutes later he hit the floor and started to convulse. Was sick for a week and allergic as hell to the compound. I pinned the same shit and was fine especially when I got his gear!..lol. Good luck and if you need any help with research PM me.

[balookis]

Magni,

Thanks, man. I like to think it is the "being bright" option...but if winding you up will get me this kind of great info. then I'll keep winding, lol. Actually, researching things, learning how they work and then writing about them is what I do for a living. This time I just have the opportunity to apply that practice to something I am personally interested in instead of the technical/manufacturing related stuff that pays the bills.

The info. you posted certainly supports the idea of using EQ or Deca while running Test. to maintain tendon health as well as running the low doses of HCG during cycle. HGH may be something I will look into in the future. I wouldn't want to try to tackle that one this early in the game.

One thing I did notice is that the article warns against running Test. at the 500mg/wk dosage. Do you think that dosage is fine? That (500mg/wk) seems to be pretty standard according to most.

Seanster,

I feel ya', man, lol. Running a single compound the first time out does seem to make sense...a better opportunity to see how your body responds and no guessing about the culprit if you begin to experience sides. I have been seriously considering running a Test. only cycle for those reasons and I'm sure I would see some quality gains from it. My only concern is the tendon health thing. Running Test. for 10-12 weeks with nothing to promote collagen synthesis is making me nervous. I don't need any torn tendons and months away from the gym. The jury is still out on that one. Have you run Test. solo before? What has been your experience with that?

Thanks to both of you guys for taking the time to provide me with solid information. Maybe I will be in a positon one day to help out the new folks.